ErinM Welcome to the third in a groundbreaking series of online conferences presented by... OMNI Online and HarperSanFrancisco on cyberculture. Our guests tonight are Doug Rushkoff, author of CYBERIA... TR-i aka Todd Rundgren... and Mondo 2000 music editor Jas Morgan. We hope that TR-i and Jas will be joining... us shortly. In the meantime, we'll start with Doug Rushkoff. If you have any questions about how the auditorium works, please send an instant message to... our usher, OMNI Muse, who will help you with your questions. Rushkoff Hi. So: Cyberia and music. In the book, I trace the evolution of Cyberian music... not meaning "computer" music, exactly, but the development of music which relies less on... traditional structure, and more on "texture." For me, the easiest place to start is Brian Eno... whose Ambient recordings existing less as music to listen to... but more as "spaces" to enter. For me, that's the Cyberian aesthetic in a nutshell. It's less something the musician "doess *to*" the listener... than a texture the musician provides for the listener to experience. This was great for cyber-types... who, rather than doing traditional, linear songwriting... did more of a cut-and-paste of textures sampled or generated from a variety of sources. Industrial came from that and, naturally, house music... as well as a general philosophy of "music-as-time machine." Grokster Sorry I'm late... I got stuck in the third row. Rushkoff Welcome TR-i, Grokster! ErinM Well, TR-i aka Todd Rundgren has arrived under the name of Grokster! OK, folks, while we wait for Jas Morgan to arrive online, we'll start taking some questions... for TR-i and Doug. Here's the first one: Question How will your analog music be converted to interactive? Will you put out something on CD rom, such as a TR-I retrospective, TEPTAE? Grokster I expect to be making a review of all the old stuff for conversion. May take a while. Right now I find myself explaining the concept to the point that it is eating into my creative time. Rushkoff We'll be looking forward to it. Do you have any ideas about "translating" it to the new medium? Grokster It's not that complicated. The stumbling block is the nexus between computing power and sound quality. Oddly enough, a slower processor like CD-i has better sound capabilities built in. We need to be able to mix CD quality sound on the fly. Don't think it's been done yet. Question to grokster...new album? when? Grokster I don't think in terms of albums any longer. My work consists of an ever-expanding database of musical events that can be infinitely recombined. I you mean "when will there be a new chunk of events?", this year. If you mean a new non-interactive release, in June. Question you're the best.....how did you get the name T.R.-1, other than your initials? Grokster That's an 'i' not a one. I let's people know that a particular disc is interactive... or designed for interactivity. Question Grokster, how do you tie-in with Cyberia? Jasmon I have some friends here two... Paul McEnery (managing ed. Mondo) & Steve Holtzman (MIT Press) Grokster What's that mean? ErinM I think the questioner wants to know how you fit into cyberculture. Jasmon That means I type faster than Jas. Information wants to be free! Grokster I'm not that self conscious about it. I've always had a good relationship with machinery. Question how do we reconcile differing formats, for instnace cd-I vs. dos or mac, in terms of availablity to the listener? Jasmon The marketplace will do it for us ErinM By the way, folks, Jasmon is Jas Morgan, Mondo 2000's music editor. Welcome, Jas! Grokster We design Interactive Music for a virtual machine. We then try to subvert as many platforms... as possible to that virtual standard. Question Grokster - are you planning any projects for CD-ROM? A lot of us would love to try your CD-I work, but many of us don't have the CD-I players....... Grokster The Mac version will be out @ June 24. Windows version soon to follow. Question Do you see electronic (CPU) music 'stealing' something from the live acoustic art that got you here? Jasmon Well Todd, I saw the video from Ryko, it was a meeting with Philips suits. they wanted to exploit und underground dj's going overground OMNI Muse (7) That doesn't update immediately, so it could be a few less or more, but that's about right. Jasmon by giving them Philips Interactive machines Grokster I don't think I've forgotten how to play loud guiotar. Jasmon No, but Inoticed when your powerbook broke down at the exploratorium... Grokster I think it's a great idea. They got it from me. Jasmon ...it inspired a beautiful acoustic set Grokster My point exactly. Rushkoff I think each electronic innovation or imitation makes us appreciate the original or acoustic reality all the more. Data onscreen has led to a revival of books... the video has led to a revival of big screen good sound movie houses. Jasmon No, a revival of manuscript, as McLuhan points out Grokster Photography did not obsolete painting- it freed it. Rushkoff If anything, it lets us see (or hear) what is so special about the original form. Cyber sex will do the same... Grokster I could see that coming (pardon the pun). Jasmon Nothing is special about the original form, but all new tech incorportates it into itself ErinM Let me recap for the latecomers, both to the audience and to our stage. OMNI Online is proud to present a conference on cyberculture and music, featuring... Grokster aka TR-i aka Todd Rundgren,... Jasmon aka Jas Morgan, Mondo 2000 music editor,... and Doug Rushkoff, author of the new HarperSanFrancisco book CYBERIA. I'm Erin Murphy, OMNI's online editor. If you have any questions about how the auditorium operates, please send... an instant message to our "usher," OMNI Muse, who will help you. And back to the questions for our guests. Question Todd, why spend so much time explaining....why not just release a CDI and tour...like your first one? JawaMaster (9) What the hell is this???? Grokster I'm trying to get on the road, but Striesand has sucked all the air out of the market. Jasmon Lot of room in those nostrils Grokster Next month, Forward will release an alternative vbersion of the album called "No World Order Lite". We're planning a Euro tour for Sept... Jasmon Why LIte? Grokster and there is a possibility of a permanent installation at the Woodstock Fest. The CD is "backwards compatible" for pre-90's attitudes. Question What about sound and visual effects creating each other? Jasmon Well, that brigs synaesthesia up, doessn't it? Grokster Why does everyone want to remove human intervention from the creative process? Rushkoff I think synaesthesia *is* human intervention, actually. Isn't it one way of "participating" in a musical experience? TO see stuff while you listen? ErinM Can you give the audience a definiton of synaesthesia, Doug? Rushkoff I got familiar with it in psychedelic trips. Grokster I thought that's what my imagination was for. Rushkoff It's when you see a color, and "hear" a sound along with it. Jasmon To get back to Todd's point, a human being is the way music makes more music Rushkoff Or the way a human experiences it, no? Grokster The solution to the the problem, then, is legalization. Go for it! Jasmon But synaesthesia is a cognitive talent where you taste shape, hear a color...any modality Rushkoff Right. The senses become almost interchangeable, synergistic. Question If music becomes interactive, won't it go the way of mTV and become NOT music? Jasmon See the big article in the next MONDO, two weeks from now Rushkoff I think all the art forms, so to speak, will become more participatory. People want to be less "passive" about listening to music, or watching film, or even accepting politics. Grokster Let's not forget, some people think they LIKE Mtv. Jasmon If music is self-involved, only the self-involved will make music Rushkoff It doesn't mean that TR-i will have less to do. Grokster It always worked for me. Rushkoff It just means that musicians will have to take into account (as they always have, I suppose) Jasmon And less toi their accountants Rushkoff That audiences will be treating sound as an environment to be explored actively. Grokster I'm just trying to murder the concept of 'the masterpiece". Question How long until on-line real time digital concerts will happen and where would I go to learn about the state of the art there? Jasmon Have you painted your masterpiece, Todd, or is it yet to come? Digital concerts? Already happened in England. Future Sound of London on the BBC Grokster Does that mean musical telepresence? Rushkoff That's what it sounds like to me. Some kind of online concert. Grokster Materpiece-wise, time makes all thing look silly. ErinM I think the person is talking about viewing concerts in real time on the computer. Rushkoff or hearing 'em. I think the real fun will be when people begin... to participate in online musical symphonies. They've played around with this in Europe some. Where people log in, and different folks Grokster Why do we glamorize anti-social activities? If this were a real room.... Rushkoff play different instruments, but everyone hears the whole collective thing. Grokster I would have offended everyone by now. Rushkoff Is logging in anti-social, though, really? Maybe it's good that you haven't offended all these folks...yet. Grokster There's no smell. Rushkoff I agree, but... I see this online stuff as remedial socialization for a culture that's essentially lost the ability to get together any other way. Grokster There's very low potential to become horny. Rushkoff At least, to get together in a truly "participatory" way. These mediating technologies make it less scary and, yes, less horny. People are afraid of horns these days. Grokster Lately, I've become wary of the sub-psychological effects of a life lived in synthetic environments, Question Will we ever have the audio equivalent of Photoshop? Jasmon Thanks pops Grokster In what way? Rushkoff I think the person means a true audio editing tool on line. Doesn't that exist in some form? ErinM I guess the questioner is referring to an audio program that offers the benefits... Jasmon How about the filtering effects of DigiDesign or Sonic Solutions? ErinM of Photoshop. Grokster I guess this forum makes follow up questiopns difficult. ErinM Yes, it does. Rushkoff This kind of program, if not already out there, will surely come. Question (for TR) I liked your little motto "it's the content, stupid!" Do you think that with the developments in digital media in general, people are getting ridiculously myopic about the medium vs. real content? Jasmon Only that MONDO is alive and well. Don't be fooled. We just drop out of sight now and then Grokster Nail on head. I only deal with tec hnology as dictated by the demands of my message. Jasmon Form and content. Old issue What about art as problem ssolving in a new medium? Question What will this mean to the consumer on the retail level? What can we expect? What can we expect to hear on the radio? Grokster I've always considered the understanding of the creative process as an art in itself. Jasmon What can you expect to hear through your computer? Grokster I have the greatest admiration for programmers who have mastered this art. Case in point... just got mail from Kai. Jasmon How do you feel about the dichotomy between authoring and programming language, Todd Grokster I don't see the dichotomy. Is the vision worth the effort, regardless of the tool? Jasmon You're saying the vision precedes the effort? Grokster The material world congeals itself around a powerful idea. Question Will TR-i enter into digital video - perhaps interactive Adobe Premiere video clips Grokster I'd love to. The problem is finding a dependable delivery medium. So far, it's VHS. Jasmon Build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door Question Do you revel in anonymity in cyberspace Todd? Is it a relief NOT to get recognized? Jasmon Actually, the new stuff in DVP from SuperMac and Avid et al is going to make VHS obsolet. Grokster Normally, yes. But when I was stuck inm row 3 if found myself ASCII screaming to get someone's... attention.$ga Rushkoff I would guess that the relief is countered by the number of people who know your email address! Question todd..when virtual reality becomes technically available to home computer users, is this the next step for you? Jasmon It is available, but this goggles and gloves exoskeleton is ridiculous... Grokster Sc rtew VR, I'm moving to Hawaii! Jasmon microelectrical stimulation of the brain is the new thing. Grokster (Screw, that is) Question Grokster, how difficult was it, from a technical standpoint, to mount the "No World Order" tour? Grokster One of the more stressful, miserable experiences of my life. I have never before canceled a show... due to technical problems. Question Are you still writing Macintosh software? ErinM I presume that's for Todd. Grokster I design. I continue to toy with the idea of getting back into programming... but there is something about it that eats away at the rest of your existence. Question Mr Rushkoff, what impact do do think cyberian music is having on the current music industry as compared with th e impact you expect it to have in, say, 50 years? Jasmon Do you find that there's a romance and elegance to programming, like music,Todd? Rushkoff I think the big change is that some of the "ego" may be taken out... ...what so many participants like about "house" is that there is no performer on stage. Jasmon Yup. There's a lot of anonymous bands out there. But that's no bad thing. Rushkoff A certain aspect of the duality inherent in performance has diminished, and may continue to do so. I think people will also look to music to something a little different for them. Take them somewhere. Grokster We mistake cultural evolution as a linear process... Folk music is going to make a big comeback. Jasmon You think, Doug? The anonymous performer is a sacrificial goat. Anyway, techno is the new folk music Rushkoff The onstage big performer -- ie Kurt -- ends up being the sacrificial one, in my opinion. ErinM Let's take a brief break for "station identification." You've found OMNI Online and HarperSanFrancisco's online conference on... cyberculture and music. Our guests tonight are... Grokster aka TR-i aka Todd Rundgren,... Jasmon aka Jas Morgan, Mondo 2000 music editor, ... and Doug Rushkoff, author of the new book CYBERIA. I'm the moderator this evening--OMNI's online editor, Erin Murphy. If you've got any questions about how the auditorium operates, please send an instant message... to our "usher," OMNI Muse, who will be pleased to help you. Back to the questions! Question The obligatory philosophical question TRI: Considering that most of the world is poor, and state of the art technology is far beyond their means, is it possible that the future , in terms of integration of technology, is inherently elitetist? Thanks Grokster Art has always been elitist, at least until Thomas Edison. A movie still costs 7 bucks, a record 12, etc. Rushkoff The technology is getting cheaper and more available, though. Every kid enrolled in a Colorado public school will be getting a laptop in September. Inner city kids in Seattle can go online at community centers. As in the UK, too. It's gonna take a little while, but I think that Grokster The problem is having to buy something you don't want. 11 stinky songs come with the good one. Rushkoff the interactive technologies will kill many forms of elitism. Question do you compose with the computer or do you play/record and hope you hit the nail on the head? and what computer do you prefer? Grokster I used to use the computer mostly as a transcription tool, conveying my ideas to other live players. Lately, I'm tinkering in areas difficult to explain to others, so I've become more dependent on soft.. ware. I use Cubase on the Mac. Question Do you have any reservations about people messing with your work? There has been some controversy about a CD of Gershwin Piano Rolls that were converted to MIDI. Will peoples' interactions make the music less "yours" Is it really "TR-i" at that point? Grokster The message is the medium, for me. Rushkoff Isn't that part of what you were alluding to before...about your music being lots of pieces? Grokster Others might be more interested in creating a simulacrum of themselves for public... consumption. I've grown less precious about it over time. I would have to to do what I'm doing. Jasmon Or you might be like John Cage and make games so people can find their own music Question Grokster, "video killed the radio-star", do you think software will do the same to the the video-stars? Grokster I think I have been responding to an obvious change in peoples listening habits. Music is not a 'quality time' experience. It is too ubiquitous. Jasmon Future Sound of London are the new video stars... And how about that Kawaguchi? $ga Rushkoff If video killed the radio star, it's because the radio star couldn't be looked at. If software kills the video star, it'll be because Grokster Video directors don't get enough credit for the way they make musicians look glamorous. Rushkoff he can't be played with. It'll be because he' s too sacred. Grokster If they had a choice, I'm sure they'd rather choose their actors. Question Grokster, how do you see the distribution of music in the future - compared to the present record co., MTV, radio pipeline? Grokster Online, and the sooner the better. What is interactive tv for, anyway? Jasmon Or bulletin boards. Onine distribution, like the IUMA kids in Santa Cruz Rushkoff I think we'll be seeing a lot more trickle-up media from "regular" folks. And it'll be fun. Jasmon But of course, LPs became CDs which became minidiscs... ...the end of CD art as we know it. Question Grokster, in what form do you see the future of live concerts? Grokster By the millenium, you won't find a player that isn't recordable. Jasmon GG Allin had the right idea. Grokster More of the same plus more interactive. The event will not lose it's appeal.\ Rushkoff Live concerts won't go anywhere, but people might be even more concerned with the crowd than the band. Grokster But the ability to interact with the performer, and more importantly, other audience members.. Jasmon We worship together at the church of rock and roll Rushkoff Right. But the priest will be a partner, not a father. Grokster will become a recognizable attraction. We agree on something!!! Jasmon Question all authority figures. Even if it's Pink Floyd Rushkoff hooray! Question Grokster: have you seen the Prince Interactive CD-ROM? What do you think? Grokster Who could be more inaccsesible? Jasmon You mean Squiggle?... Too slow, too static. Rushkoff The word interactive is getting way overused, isn't it? It's supposed to mean *we* get to play, too! Grokster Ain't seen it. Heard. Lot of walking down hallways from what I gather. Question Grokster: what do you think of the work Thomas Dolby is doing in VR? Jasmon "interactive" means nothing. It's humanism, the personal touch. High tech, soft touch... Grokster Maybe the closest thing to my definition of interactive music. Jasmon ...in squiggle's case, it's all touch me, me, me. Grokster Excepting myself, of course. Question What can we expect from NWO lite... in terms of NWO? Grokster The musical ideas have been conglomerated into 'songs' with silences in between. No cross quoting or alternative mixes. Question Grokster: Are the record labels still clueless on interactive music? Jasmon They're clueless on music, period. Excepting our advertisers, of course. Grokster As far as the possibilities go, yes. At least they are showing a willingness to let others... (me) educate them. Jasmon They don't have a lot of choice, do they? Rushkoff Even Snapple lets listeners write the tunes... Grokster Every label has an interactive division. Unfortunately, they mistake multimedia for interactive music. IM is a listening experience, not simply riffling through the artists baby pictures. Jasmon So, are you ready for audience feedback, Todd? Grokster Go!!! Jasmon You could end up making the same record for the rest of your life! Question where can i get No World Order lyrics? Grokster Inside the booklet for NWO Lite. Sounds like a sales pitch, eh? Sorry it's the only place I can... think of. Jasmon Isn't IM a way to channel people's hooligan response to music, ie sampling and scratching ...Pilfering and appropriating? Grokster At the twitchy end, certainly. Question Todd, don't you think that digital intervention takes away from the purity of an analog recording? Grokster But I think most people will set up a listening circumstance and let the machinery do the walking. Jasmon You haven't had your record collection very long, have you? Rushkoff I think we have to retrain ourselves not to think Grokster I think Neil Young has an opinion about that. I don't. Rushkoff of everything digital as intervening. Jasmon You're right Todd. We're all couch potatoes at heart. Question Grokster, how about releasing MIDI sound files of some of your work. Make it really interactive. Grokster I relish the concept. One of the most rewarding experiences of my life as an artist... was listening to a tribute album produced by mostly non-professional musicians. Question Grokster-Interactive, Interactive music makes no sense. Why wade through 10,000 variations of someone else's chord progressions and arpeggios when you can sit down at the piano and do it yourself? I mean, who cares, other than a hard-core fan? Jasmon Neil said digital squeezes out all the "music." If you've heard Reactor, you'll know he was right. Grokster Are you trying to limit the options of the hard-core fan? Jasmon Fandom is another form of fetishism... ...not that that's such a bad thing. Grokster I have a favorite pair of pants... Question Todd/Grokster We have CD quality sound available for our PC,s and MACS now give us some stuff. OPEN the vault!! Let us have you musical career on CD-I Jasmon Todd, can we collect them? Grokster Your wish is my command. MAKE IT SO!!! Jasmon We have the REd Hot Chili Peppers dental impressions. Guess which is Flea. Question When did you first move towards Multimedia? In the days when you were programming with the AT&T gang? Grokster The one with dentures? Jasmon No, tht was Chet Baker. Grokster That was Roger Powell. I, unfortunately, have never met Max Mathews. Jasmon Rock has never been anything else but Multimedia - a great educational system Grokster I'm still not into multimedia. Jasmon ...and we're still at back of the class, or on detention. Grokster I still think of walls of slide projectors whenever I hear the term. ErinM And we're going to wind up with one last question that I assume is for Todd: Question i think u should write a song about cyberspace...aol and compuserve... ErinM What do you say? Jasmon Doug, you're books OK, but how come you left out the important women? Grokster Utopia already did. It was called 'Zen Machine' and it was on POV. Jasmon Okay, we're not answering the question, but how could we? Rushkoff I couldn't include everyone. Just samples. There were a coupla pretty darn good women in there. ErinM And with that, we conclude our conference this evening. I'd like to thank our guests... Grokster aka TR-i aka Todd Rundgren... Jasmon aka Jas Morgan, music editor for Mondo 2000 magazine... and Doug Rushkoff, author of the new HarperSan Francisco book CYBERIA. Thanks very much, guys! And thanks to our audience for the great questions... and to our usher, OMNI Muse. Grokster Thanx , everyone! Rushkoff 'night all.